We all notice the difference. Smoking has a fast onset, and a different “feel”.
Edibles tend to last longer and avoid any of the potential pitfalls of smoking.
Is there a way to get the best of both worlds?
This week, we sat down with Riley Kirk PhD (aka Cannabichem) to talk about a breakthrough that is leading to the possibility of edibles that feel more like smoking.
We also cover:
- Whether or not strain specific edibles are a thing
- What the most surprising piece of data Riley has collected so far
- The science behind the difference between smoking and eating cannabis
- And more!
If you’ve ever wondered why edibles and smoking feel different, or you want to know more about the latest research says about cannabis, this podcast is for you.
Show Resource Links:
Follow Riley on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cannabichem
Buy products made using the Smokenol process: www.profoundnaturals.com
WIN AN ARDENT and a Scholarship to the Certified Cannabis Educator Program in November 2023: https://wakeandbake.co/cannabis-wellness-giveaway/
Take the free webinar 3 Steps to Launching your Cannabis Wellness Business: cannabiscoachinginstitute.com/3steps
Visit Andrea at Reveal Cannabis: www.revealcannabis.com
Email us with questions and requests at [email protected]
Transcript of Ep 206
Ep 207 – Can you make edibles that feel like smoking weed? (A Conversation with Riley Kirk PhD.)
This week on the Wake + Bake podcast.
Riley Kirk: Almost all of the funding for cannabis research is in a negative light about, how is it addictive? How is smoking bad for you?
Well, what about, how is smoking good for you?
smokable, inhalable products still dominate the cannabis industry as the number one products people are looking for.
Corinne Tobias: And then along comes smokenol , which is both somehow smoking and eating cannabis
Riley Kirk: we’re really trying to provide the feeling of smoking to people who either don’t want to smoke or can’t smoke.
A lot of patients cannot smoke, but they miss that feeling or they don’t get as many medicinal benefits from other consumption methods.
Andrea Meharg: Now we’re in this weird place where you have a product that you smoked, then put into an edible, and I feel like I’m inception and I really wanna
know what’s it taste
Riley Kirk: like. Some people are like, well, I don’t like the taste of your extract.
And it’s kind of like, okay, but does it make you feel better? Does it work? It’s medicine. So do you like the taste of r s o? Do you like the taste of Advil? Like usually no
Andrea Meharg: People need this information so badly and we’re not able to give them the information that might help them to convince their legislators to change their minds about cannabis so that we’re not prohibited from using the regular media platforms that everyone else can use
Riley Kirk: I did respond to a couple of the trolls and I like trolled the trolls. Like I definitely shouldn’t have done that,
Corinne Tobias: Note to self, don’t talk shit to Riley Kirk.
Andrea: Corinne, I think the coolest thing about doing this podcast with you is that we get to ask our favorite or nerdiest cannabis questions to real experts in the field.
And today’s podcast episode is no different. We’re talking to Riley Kirk, a bad ass PhD scientist with a passion for this plant.
Corinne: Yeah, I almost had a heart attack. I remember sitting down before we recorded this podcast. Do you remember this? I was in Mexico at the time and I was like, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe we get to do this one.
And that’s because there are loads of scientists and loads of researchers doing work around cannabis right now, but Riley is different. Not only is she a woman in the field, which is quite rare, she’s also an open cannabis user and she posts her findings and the things that she’s learned on social media to share with everyone.
She has a big social media following. She has videos that get hundreds of thousands of views. And right now, Riley is working on a technology that could make the experience of eating edibles closer to the experience of smoking cannabis, which we all know in cannabis edibles is kind of a big deal.
Andrea: She also talks about what it’s like for her to be banned constantly from social media from sharing about this plant, and she tries to settle a debate that Corinne and I are constantly having about strain specific edibles and probably I win.
You also have to stick around right to the very end to hear Riley completely blow our minds about a new finding in cannabis topicals.
One of the things we’re trying this season on the Wake and Bake podcast is to give each podcast episode a nerdiness level. So Corrine out of one to 10, how nerdy is this one do you think with Riley?
Corinne: I think it’s like a three, four. I think it’s helpful to understand decarboxylation and how edibles work, but I don’t think it’s necessary.
And I also think it’s having, we’re having like a real human conversation with a nerd. So I think it’s a very different, different approach. It’s not super technical. And, um, her perspective is amazing and I think it’s really great for anyone, especially women who are thinking about maybe going into cannabis, whether it’s research or education.
Andrea: Absolutely. Let’s go.
Corinne Tobias: Okay, but before we get started, I have to pop on real quick and apologize because I just finished editing the entire podcast and I realized that it is much, much nerdier than Andrea and I remember.
It gets deep, we get into the weeds, we’re talking to a cannabis… Chemist. I mean, come on, like we got pretty nerdy on this one. Anyway, it’s amazing. I hope you still love it. I just wanted to let you know that it’s pretty nerdy.
also want to let you know that we currently have a free class right now at the Cannabis Coaching Institute called Three Steps to Launching Your Cannabis Wellness Business.
If you are passionate about this plant, if you love learning about this, and if you want to have nerdy conversations like this with people and share information about this plant, this class is for you. Go to CannabisCoachingInstitute. com forward slash three steps, or is it a backward slash? It’s a slash in some direction.
I’ll put the link below and I can’t wait to see you there. All right, let’s get started.
Andrea Meharg: Our students at the Cannabis Coaching Institute have been asking us for well over a year to get our next guest in for an interview. They found her on social media explaining cannabis science in a way that’s both accessible and fun, and they had so many questions for her. So we’re really excited to welcome Riley Kirk to the podcast with us here today.
And as you know, as a regular listener on the Waken Bake Podcast, we’re focused on sharing both the science and the stories behind cannabis. And we have a feeling that you, Riley, have a great story. After all. It’s wonderful and really rare to see a woman with her PhD working in cannabinoid sciences. Not only that, but you’ve been featured in Forbes and have an enormous social media following.
So can you introduce yourself and tell us about how you got from where you were to where you are?
Riley Kirk: Sure. My name is Riley Kirk. I am the lead scientist at Smoke All and I’m sure we’ll talk about what Smoke All is cuz it’s technically a technology company. But we’re doing some really cool stuff and some really cool research.
My story of how I got to my current position was very non-linear and I’m kind of one of those people that just kind of, I don’t know, floats through kind of waiting for good opportunities to come. But honestly, weed has literally guided me to my point in my career. I grew up in Maine, in rural Maine.
I was always experimenting with plants and fungi extracting things before I even knew what they were. But I was like, Ooh, this makes a cool red color. That’s cool. Let’s add it to the collection. You know, I was one of those kids playing with like skulls and stuff in the woods. And, uh, in my undergraduate career I.
I just studied biomedical science. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I kind of started out wanting to be a physician, and then the more people I met, I was like, Ooh, I don’t think I wanna be a physician at all. Um, so then that kind of altered after undergraduate, then I started working in biotech, um, as an immunology scientist.
And during that job I kind of realized where that industry was going. I was, you know, programming robots and I was so removed from the science and I really didn’t like that. I wanted to be more involved in designing experiments and seeing those results and seeing how that impacted people and their quality of life.
So I kind of started to reevaluate my life at that point, and I was like, all right, what, what makes me happy? What are things I like to do? Cannabis has always been part of my life. I’ve been using cannabis since I was 14 years old, almost every single day. Then I found this word, uh, called pharmac cogency when I was just researching different things to do, um, different programs to enter.
And PCY is the study of how we can use natural products, so plants, fungi, bacteria, and how they could potentially be new drugs. So it’s this interesting component of pharmaceutical sciences that utilizes nature because nature is the best organic chemist in the world and makes molecules that we can’t even dream of, and it makes molecules that are compatible with receptors in living organisms.
So, At that same time my father was diagnosed with cancer. It was a really kind of volatile time. , but he encouraged me to still go to this program. Uh, so I entered the pharmacognacy program at the University of Rhode Island and I had the world’s best mentor there. His name is Dr. Matthew Burton. And I was kind of a tough graduate student because I would do what he would ask me to do, like whatever we had funding for.
But I would also stay there till like 1:00 AM and do what I wanted to do at night. Cuz there was all of these awesome machines. Part of my dissertation, I. Was looking at the medicinal plant garden that U U R I has at the College of Pharmacy and extracting it in traditional mediums, like a water extract, which is a tea or an alcohol extract, which is a tincture.
And I would use those extracts with modern pharmaceutical tools to discover, discover either new uses for those extracts or new molecules that could be in those extracts. So I’m always like always foraging. I’m always looking for like interesting things in nature. My husband’s a biologist too. So this is kinda where my interest and everything started.
But during graduate school I was also very interested in learning more about cannabis because again, this is like really where I started to really love natural products. And you can feel cannabis working in your body. And that’s such an interesting feeling cuz some natural products you’re just kind of taking and hoping for the best.
But cannabis, you feel that pharmacology working in your body. So I started to be the teaching assistant for the new cannabis program, and I started to research C B D for its, uh, skin permeability effects. And as I was the TA for the cannabis program, I realized that, um, everyone should have access to this information, not just people who can afford it through academic, um, avenues.
I mean, it’s thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. about the same time, it was right before like the pandemic hit and TikTok started to blow up. And I was like, you know, there’s a couple things I know about that I think people might find interesting. So I started to make a few videos on just the absolute basics of cannabis, uh, C B, D and T H C, and, you know, what is a receptor?
How does this act in your body? And it just absolutely blew up like almost immediately. And I was like, wow, there’s such a need for this information. I’ve had all my accounts deleted multiple, multiple times, but just keep coming back and keep spreading that information because there’s no one else.
Like, there’s a bunch of people doing it now, it’s not like, you know, the government’s trying to tell us about how cannabis works in our body in a positive light. Almost all of the funding for cannabis research is in a negative light about, you know, how is it addictive? How can it, how is smoking bad for you?
Well, what about, how is smoking good for you? Or how can it, how can you get out of other addictions like opioid addiction through the use of cannabis in responsible harm reduction manner? So I know that was a long answer, but that’s kind of my path to where I am now.
Corinne Tobias: That’s so awesome. Oh my gosh. So awesome.
You’re out there foraging and being a little girl in the woods, like, oh, this is a cool skull, and like, how can I put this mushroom in this thing? And then took that with you into grad school and utilized lab time I’m so blown away by how, holistic. You view pharmacy and pharmacology. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Yeah,
Riley Kirk: yeah. I mean, everything’s holistic though. Like even the way that , we study systems like the endo cannabinoid system, dopamine, serotonin. We always study it in such an isolated manner. All of these systems are interconnected in our body, and we need to start thinking of it in systems, in networks in our body.
You can’t just say, this molecule affects your CB one receptor because that CB one receptor goes on to affect like 25 other receptors minimum. By the way, I still forage and I still love like skulls and things, and I, I still like live that life. It’s been interesting to not only have that background that I had before grad school, but also again, like my husband’s background is so cool on animal biology specifically, like.
Moose and deer and he teaches me things all the time that I’m like, wow, cuz I’m looking at things at a microscopic scale and he’s looking at things at a larger scale and combined. We’re just always like blowing each other’s mind. It’s so fun.
Corinne Tobias: All right. I need a nerd husband. Cannabis couple goals or couple goals in general. So Andrea and I work at the Cannabis Coaching Institute, and when we’re doing our work there, we really love talking about all the different ways to consume cannabis.
Now, most people know about smoking, and I was reading on your website that 75 percent of people prefer smoking. Um, there’s also vaping and edibles, which most people kind of know about now. But when we get into things like topical sublinguals, transdermal patches, suppositories, minds get blown.
People are like, you can put cannabis where and in what and how. And then along comes smokenol , which is both somehow smoking and eating cannabis and. I have so many questions. You know, one of the taglines on your website was We smoke it for You, I believe. Right? We already smoked
Riley Kirk: it before you Our trademark.
Yeah. We smoked it for you.
Corinne Tobias: And I’m like, I wanna know everything. So can you just give us a brief overview of what it is?
Riley Kirk: Yeah, I would love to. It’s, it’s really interesting, as I mentioned, like we are a technology company. We also make products just kind of as a proof of concept of what you can do with this technology.
So Smokenol is a way to essentially extract cannabinoids from the smoke and not from the raw flour because we know that smoking feels different than other consumption methods. I think almost anyone who uses the products knows that, um, smokable, inhalable products still dominate the cannabis industry as the number one products people are looking for.
And there’s many components of this, but what we like to focus on is this aspect of transformation. Meaning the compounds that are present that that plant is making, they’re changed when you heat them up. And we have evidence for this in almost everything that you heat up, whether you’re cooking onions or burning logs on a fire like that, chemistry is changing when you heat it up.
So probably the most common example that we talk about is T HC partially converts to C B N when you’re smoking. And this partially, uh, is like the reason why it feels different. But every single molecule in that plant is converting to at least 10 other molecules. And the chemistry is incredibly unique.
We mostly study a hemp and C B D because like legally it’s a lot easier. And under the license we have, it’s a lot easier. But for instance, like we have our C B D flower and after it’s gone through the smoking all process we have significant levels of C B T, which is in almost no other products, xo, T H d, cbc, C B L, like all of these minor and rare compounds that are interacting with your body in ways that we have not fully like un been able to understand yet.
But the feeling is so distinctively different that we know it’s making people feel unique and different and the effects are different. So our actual process. It’s really, really simple. You’re literally taking cannabis, putting it into an oven, the smoke is then pulled through a specialized filter that selectively captures those cannabinoids.
Then we remove those off the filter, and that’s the smoke extract. So then that smoke extract can be added into, uh, edibles if your license allows you to, uh, topicals, tinctures, suppositories, whatever you want. So we use this technology to make hemp products, but we also license this technology to other people who wanna make smoke extracts for their business that works with high t h g cannabis.
Andrea Meharg: So many questions still.
Riley Kirk: Yeah, no, it’s like, it’s so, it’s so many new concepts and I totally get that. That’s why we’re so open to like, you know, doing interviews or like, we have a YouTube channel where like we please comment on those and we’ll answer the questions cuz we understand it’s new and, and a huge barrier is education, but we’re really trying to provide the feeling of smoking to people who either don’t want to smoke or can’t smoke.
A lot of patients cannot smoke, but they miss that feeling or they don’t get as many medicinal benefits from other consumption methods. And, and this technology is allowing them to feel more like they were smoking compared to other methods.
Andrea Meharg: so you mentioned that when you’re, um, heating up C B D and it’s the smoke is creating these new minor cannabinoids.
Again, some of those like I’ve never heard of can you tell me first how much of a percentage is coming out in the final product? Like you put in C B D and it was like 15% C, b, D. Are you getting like 3% new minor cannabinoids out of there?
Is it a significant amount?
Riley Kirk: Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, I. The input material drastically alters what your output material is, right? Because whatever you put in is what’s going to be changed into that final product. So it is incredibly variable. And I will also say that we don’t use our crude extract. We typically recommend for others and ourselves, we do a type of distillation where we’re not targeting one specific compound.
We’re kind of targeting that whole suite of cannabinoids. So in that final distillate, um, we have, we’ve had up to 13% C B T, and 10% X O T H C, which is very significant for a cannabis product for that much miners and rares to be produced, you know, organically through this process because, We’ve had people say, oh, like why wouldn’t I just add in these compounds and to just add them together and then give that to people?
Would it be the same effect? And it really isn’t because it’s not just these ones that I’m talking about in appreciable amounts. There’s these other compounds and very small amounts that we have literally no idea what they do. But we know they’re cannabinoids and they’re in very small abundance. But we know that every molecule contributes to that final effect, right?
So even if you have some molecules in 7%, some molecules in 0.3%, they’re all contributing. And also. Some of these conversions, like we know that C B D converts to T H C, which is really interesting at high temperatures and acidity. Our smoke extracts do have small amounts of th h c in them, which we know contribute to the medicinal benefits as well, even if the starting material did not.
Andrea Meharg: And then my second question is let’s say I’m taking it in a pill form, isn’t my digestive system again changing what I just put into me into new cannabinoids? And if so, how does it replicate smoking so well if I’m also consuming it?
Riley Kirk: So we don’t know how each of these compounds are metabolized yet. We have not done that research. But as far as like metabolism, to 11 hydroxy thc or the carboxylic acid derivative of that, that’s inactive. We don’t know exactly how that is, and we also know that our process is not.
100% replicating the feeling of smoking. We’re just trying to get as close as we possibly can. Um, so I think as it is now, it’s gonna be very difficult to completely bypass metabolism. We’re trying to get as close as we can. It definitely feels different than other edible products.
Definitely feels more like smoking and that’s kind of what we’re going for. Uh, I think the only way to replicate it would be to actually smoke. Like I don’t think anything is going to get, actually replace smoking, cuz even vaping feels different because the temperature’s different. The onsets different, the metabolism’s, different transformation’s different.
Corinne Tobias: Awesome. Thank you so much. So how close is it? Like where are we at? So vaping, I don’t know, let’s just put like a number on it, right? If it’s smoking is a hundred percent smoking feeling right when you smoke, you have this particular effect, use the same flour, maybe that’s around like 60, 70%, you know, of the same kind of feeling like where is smoking all on this made up spectrum that I just did with my hands?
Riley Kirk: I’ll say like 85%. It’s definitely more to the feeling of, of smoking for sure, but it’s also like we’ve put our, our smoking all extract in a vape. And that is much more similar to smoking because you still have that rapid onset. It’s not getting metabolized by your liver, it’s going directly to your brain, but you still have that high temperature conversions.
I will say this too, a lot of people worry about. Are you, are you creating benzene during this process or something like that at high temperatures? Benzene is created at very high temperatures, and when you’re physically smoking a joint that can be as high as a thousand degrees Fahrenheit, uh, we heat ours to about four 20, which is kind of funny, but around four 20, which is really avoiding those molecules being produced.
And that is on purpose. We’re trying to stay below that threshold where some of those adverse molecules are produced at really high temperatures.
Andrea Meharg: Awesome. Thank you. Can you tell me what does it taste like? Because now we’re in this weird place where you have a product that you smoked, then put into an edible, and then you’re putting it back into a vape. And I feel like I’m inception and I really wanna
know what’s it taste
Riley Kirk: like. We’re not saying that everyone needs to put it into a vape either.
We, we, we just love experimenting on ourselves. I’m gonna be completely honest. So we were like, what’s it feel like? So, you know, that’s what we do. But, , it does have a slightly smoky taste and smell and, you know, if you buy our products like Profound Naturals products, uh, you can kind of experience that. And then some people are like, well, I don’t like the taste of your extract.
And it’s kind of like, okay, but does it make you feel better? Does it work? It’s medicine. Like we’re, we’re making this for patients. We’re not really making this for like a recreational use. So do you like the taste of r s o? Do you like the taste of Advil? Like usually no, but you still take it because it makes you feel better and you want those benefits so, A lot of people, when the product works for them, they don’t care at all.
They just wanna take the product. They just wanna feel better. They want something that works. They want something that’s different.
Andrea Meharg: And you said people can get this from Profound Naturals in the States, and can you ship this product statewide right now?
Riley Kirk: Yeah. So Profound Naturals is completely compliant to ship to all 50 United States states.
Um, we can’t ship worldwide, but uh, we can ship within the United States because it is a hemp smoke extract. Um, it’s made from hemp, so the final product is below the legal threshold of 0.3% thc. So we can absolutely ship those out and, uh, we will be the ones making your package. So we’ll sign it with the heart.
Corinne Tobias: That is so sweet. But you said you can also do this with high THC as well. I’m, I’m assuming, is that available anywhere?
Riley Kirk: Yeah. So, it’s about to be available in a few different places.
We just received our patent in October of last year, 2022. Uh, so now we’re starting to work with a lot more people and honestly, the industry has changed so much that people are looking to differentiate their products and our process is a fantastic way to create. New products that feel different, but also, if you have a ton of biomass laying around that you don’t have the ability to make into whatever products you wanna make, making smokenol products is an awesome option rather than letting it go to waste or letting it mold, or if you don’t, if you have storage issues, everyone has storage issues in the cannabis industry.
Like using this process is a fantastic way to create unique products and, it’s extremely affordable to do as well.
Corinne Tobias: All right, so you are obviously very open on social media about your cannabis use. I hear you say all the time, uh, that you’re a daily user.
You’ve been using it since you were young, you were so open about it. Has there been any backlash from the scientific community or anyone outside of the cannabis industry commenting on you being so open about your own use of cannabis?
Riley Kirk: One of the only like backlash situations I had was when my mom heard about that, when I was like, yeah, I smoke weed every day.
Like I’ve been doing it forever. And my mom’s like, did you have to say that online? And I was did I do something to make it seem like I’m a bad person or I’m not successful or like, you know, whatever. Because like on paper, I think it looks fine. I’m a functioning member of society and I’m just talking about something that’s helped me a ton.
Other than my mother, not really. Um, I am, I am part of the American Society of Pharmacognacy and I wasn’t able to attend the meeting last year, but my previous, uh, boss in grad school, my pi, he was like, everyone’s talking about your TikTok here. They think it’s so cool that you’re like open about smoking weed because in that community, like.
Everyone’s open about smoking weed. It’s like, you know, we’re all like sharing weed, sharing pens, sharing everything. And that’s in an academic setting. So I think it is becoming more and more accepted, but I’m also not looking for a 10 year academic position. Like I don’t want that so I can be open about my cannabis use.
I work in the cannabis industry. I’m planning on staying here. So for me, it doesn’t really impact my career at all. And if you’re part of some sort of institution that’s going to think less of someone for being a cannabis user, I don’t really wanna be associated with you anyway, so I’m, yeah, so I’m, I’m pretty happy where I’m at and I’ll continue to talk about it cuz I genuinely think as an educator in this industry, There’s so much nuance.
There’s so many weird products. There’s so many cool products, and I could like read a paper and regurgitate that information to you. But it’s a lot more powerful when you’re talking to someone who’s tried the product or had a horrible experience with the product. Used way too many edibles and got way too high.
Like, like I made an Instagram post that I made a key lime pie and I got so high licking the batter from it that I like had to go to bed. And I never tried the pie. And people thought that was hilarious. And I’m like, yeah, I like overdose myself with cannabis like often. And that’s how you find your perfect dose.
You know? It’s, it’s all a learning experience. It’s a very safe plant. Like the worst case is you have to go to bed. Like that’s, that’s okay, but I want people to trust me with telling me their experiences. I want people to trust what I’m telling them. And I genuinely think that you, it’s, yeah, I wouldn’t say you have to be a cannabis user, but there’s a lot of benefits to using the products.
If you’re gonna talk about how cannabis works in your body to thousands and thousands of people,
Andrea Meharg: Speaking of your thousands and thousands of people, we were gonna ask you like, Hey, how is your TikTok alive when TikTok gets taken down all the time for cannabis creators? And the answer was, oh, I just put it back up again.
So like, go you. This is part of our ethos over at CCI Like, never shut the fuck up. Like just keep going. Although your tenacity in this particular space, woo. We like highly commend you. One of the things I think is fascinating though for you is that you are able to ask thousands of people a certain question.
For example, recently you asked about like, how old were you when you started consuming cannabis? And the research shows us that people will say, Hey, I was like 16 or 17 when I started consuming. But your listeners, your audience are saying, actually I was 13 or 14. Are there other questions that you’ve asked your broader audience and been really surprised by?
Riley Kirk: Yeah. Um, that one I think I was the most surprised with cuz I started using cannabis at 14 and I always thought that was super, super young. But turns out that’s the most common answer for when people start using cannabis. And this was, yeah, this was on Instagram and on TikTok and I think I have the largest data set for that, which is kind of cool.
Some other things I thought was interesting. I mean, the edibles data of like, um, can you feel edibles? Dr. Shields and I both put up that survey and , we got the number of approximately 20%. I think that number is inflated though, because we don’t know if this is just people buying edibles from like a cannabis dispensary or if some people are making them on their own and maybe they’re not de carbing or activating that product properly, but it could be as high as 20%,
we’ve also talked to some, um, medical professionals and they say that that’s a reasonable number for what they see coming into their clinic of people who can’t feel edibles. So that number is a lot higher than what I think a lot of people, um, assume, or people assume that you’re not taking the right dose.
Oh, you just need to eat it with fatty foods. It’s definitely an enzyme issue, um, genetically with, with a large proportion of the population. So that was definitely surprising. That number was higher than what I think any of us thought it was gonna be. Other surveys I took one on. Cannabis and exercise.
I forget exactly what this question was, but it was like, what do you use cannabis for? Was it like motivation, recovery, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That video went like wicked viral. Like it had like 3.5 million views, which in the beginning of my, um, TikTok, I was like, whoa, I didn’t know you could reach this many people.
And I, I tally all this stuff by hand and I remember my husband was like, oh my God, stop getting views. Cuz we were just sitting at the like kitchen table, like trying to tally all these and then we’re like, okay, we just need to take a sample size because there’s just no way we’re gonna get through, you know, 50,000 comments by hand as they just keep accumulating.
Um, but it is kind of fun to go through them too. To a certain point
Andrea Meharg: that does sound fun to me. Like up until, you know, you’re ticking off number, you know, 25,000 or something. But being able to ask questions and get real answers, get real data sets is fantastic.
Corinne Tobias: I have a huge question about this. So you have built a huge social following, and it’s something that we tell our students kind of to avoid because we see people getting shut down and losing their accounts.
And so we’ve been using these other methods for outreach and seeing that you’ve done so well in these platforms and up to half a million subscribers, and you are openly talking about C B, D, and thc. Things that I, you know, as opening a TikTok account, got flagged immediately and shut down. So how, how, what are you doing?
What is the secret sauce that you’re using where you can say those things and they don’t shut you down for even a while.
Riley Kirk: Dude, I will say, I don’t know what’s happening with the TikTok algorithm, but this is what I do. I’ll notice that TikTok goes through these like ebbs and flows of like, you can’t say anything cannabis related.
You can’t say cbd b, thc cannabinoid, endocannabinoid system. You can’t say any of that. And sometimes I do censor myself, but I think that is the most frustrating thing for me of social media is we already have this extreme lack of like, validated information on cannabis and how cannabis works in the body.
These are already extremely hard concepts to grasp. Then I have to change the words to say like cannabis or, you know, avoid saying them all together. And now people are confused if, if that is the real word or if I’m censoring myself and it’s just, An absolute disaster. So I just stopped doing that cuz I’m like, I’m not going to sacrifice the level of education for censorship, like, delete me or don’t, but I’m not gonna do this stuff anymore.
Like, I need to say the real words for the sake of just transparent and like education. Now I, I really just try to stay pretty professional and, you know, sometimes I’ll use hashtags like education, education only, harm reduction, these kind of things. Is that working? I have no idea. I’m kind of just winging it every day, hoping for the best.
And I do still have videos deleted, like often. I sometimes get banned for like a week or two weeks or three days, you know, whatever. But once it goes back up, I just make a couple safe videos for a while and then after I feel like I. I’m safer or physically the account warning symbol is down on my account.
Then I’ll make another risky video that’s talking about like T H C or something like that. I sometimes also do will switch to talking about other natural products. So things other than cannabis. Because a lot of the same things that we think about how cannabis works in the body can be really translational to other plants too, because plants are making these molecules essentially to fight off insects, and we’re just like huge insects with similar nervous systems and those same molecules are interacting with us.
Not to get in the weeds here, but um, but yeah, so I’ll make education information on other plans. Uh, just on my background. I also will make safer videos on TikTok and then upload longer, more in depth videos on YouTube, uh, where I’m not censoring myself. And that’s been helpful too. But I wish I could help everyone with like exactly what to do.
But I’m still learning. I’ve been deleted off Instagram far more than TikTok. Um, I think I spent like 70% of last year off of Instagram.
Andrea Meharg: I just have a
big sigh in reaction to that because exactly what you said, people need this information so badly and we’re not able to give them the information that might help them to convince their legislators to change their minds about cannabis so that we’re not prohibited from using the regular media platforms that everyone else can use.
So I appreciate your tenacity there, and just the fact that you’re not willing to give up. What other challenges have you had to overcome as a rad ass lady business person in this space? What advice could you give to somebody who’s looking to come into the cannabis space, possibly as an educator? How can you help the future, ladies?
Riley Kirk: So specifically for women, I mean, I would say make content on things that either like you find most interesting or things that you’ve always wondered. I wouldn’t say stay away from like the basic things, but people can tell when you’re passionate about something. And really like play that up.
Even if it’s not about cannabis, like people wanna see you excited about what you want to talk about. And that could be anything like you, it could be taxidermy, it could be cannabis, it could be harm reduction through psychedelic it, it could be anything. But people can tell when you really care about something and people can tell when you’re kind of forced to talk about something.
And just keep making the content. I get a lot of comments like, Like sexist comments. And my biggest advice there is to block the shit out of people. Like block. Absolutely. Everyone don’t respond to the haters. You absolutely need to just block them. You control your world and social media and you really need to be comfortable with understanding that people are there just to bring you down.
They see you being successful and they want to remove you. And the best way to get around that is to just block them. Like they’re not offering anything positive. They’re not offering criticism, they’re just trying to bring you down and. Also connecting with other creators, specifically with women. If you’re uncomfortable doing a live, like do a live with another creator who might also be a little uncomfortable with that and start bouncing things off of each other.
Use the resources around you and, and really link up with like-minded people, whether that’s just women or other people, and they’re gonna wanna bring you up rather than bring you down. And it’s pretty hard to be really successful, like, on your own. But if you create this network of people that are gonna advertise for you and help you out and, you know, wanna do these events together, it can be really, really cool.
Like you build this additional community. People say that social media is like ruining communities cuz it’s taking you like into your phone, but you can build some really awesome communities and then if your account does get deleted or something, That community is gonna help bring you back. It’s gonna, they’re gonna email TikTok and say, Hey, where’s can chem?
Like she hasn’t made any content in a long time. Like I really liked her educational content. Or even on Instagram when I was deleted a million times, I actually had someone from Meta Help get me back on the app because they liked the content I made. And it’s all about like building those connections and answering your dms.
Like again, block the haters, but look at your dms because that’s how people are gonna reach you and how people are gonna be able to connect on a deeper level and collaborate and really like build that community further.
Corinne Tobias: I love that. Don’t feed the trolls, everybody. We do not feed trolls yous. You can, you can.
They’ll, they’re, they’re insatiable critters.
Riley Kirk: I actually think that’s why I was deleted off Instagram so much is I did respond to a couple of the trolls and I like trolled the trolls. Like I definitely shouldn’t have done that, but, um, I’m pretty sure one of the people I was trolling, um, is now like trying to get me removed from the internet for good.
So don’t do that. I
Corinne Tobias: love that you reverse trolled the trolls. I mean, it’s kind of a fantasy of mine. Every once in a while, throwout like an actually comment, but trolling the trolls. That’s next level ri
Riley Kirk: That’s awesome. Oh yeah. So excited. Yeah, that was probably stupid.
Corinne Tobias: All right. Note to self, don’t talk shit to Riley Kirk.
Andrea Meharg: I wanna ask you a question about my own pet project in the cannabis space.
Something that I’ve been asking every extremely smart person that I can come across, and that is whether the home chef can expect to get chemo or strained specific results from cooking with a specific type of cannabis that they know makes them feel like uplifted and bright. Do you believe that by the time they do the decarb process and then cook their edible and then it passes through their digestive system, do you think that they’re gonna get that uplifted and bright feeling from the edible?
Or is this something that um, only happens in labs like product formulations?
Riley Kirk: That’s a really good question cuz as you’re kind of talking about during product formulation, a lot of times you remove that terpene profile, you decarb it, you add in your, you know, cannabinoids and then you add back in that terpene profile to try to get that really specific strain effect.
Um, I will preface this with saying I have definitely had edibles that had a strain specific effect made by like a random guy in Vermont. Like, For sure, like not in a lab, like just made from a random guy. Um, and I think this has to do with your method of like activating and decarboning. There’s, you know, you can do it in your oven but in your oven.
That’s kind of an open environment. You’re gonna lose a lot of those volatiles, like your monoterpenes are gonna be immediately gone. Those are your small little terpenes. Um, but whether it’s methods like Seve or if you’re doing something in like a small mason jar, I do think you can maintain some of that terpene profile.
Um, and some strains also. Have their effects from heavier terpenes. So this is gonna be a little niche for a second, but so heavier terpenes called sesqua terpenes typically are literally heavier in molecular weight. So you have things like carry, carry, offline, humin, uh, bissol, like these molecules are physically heavier and they stick around longer.
They’re not lost to the environment as quickly as some monoterpenes. So I think if you had a strain that naturally had a high amount of these sesquiterpenes and those sesquiterpenes were related to those effects, I think that would be easier to carry those effects into the final product because they wouldn’t get lost to the environment as much.
Whereas if you had a strain that was really known for its, you know, mercy or pining content, uh, that would easily be lost to the environment more. So you might not be able to carry through those effects to the final product. That’s kind of a hypothesis at this point, but also, We study cannabis smoke, so we know that these heavier terpenes also make it through like the smoking process, and that’s part of the reason why smoking feels different is because these heavier terpenes are really what’s entering your body.
While those monoterpenes are kind of often lost to the environment, so I think it might be a similar phenomenon.
Andrea Meharg: That’s beautiful. Thanks for indulging me and just helping to elucidate this conversation in general. I don’t think anybody has actually the answer, but it does feel like we are coming closer to the idea that oftentimes it’s maybe,
Corinne Tobias: we’re coming closer to the fact that I’m gonna win this argument against Andrea that we’ve been having for several years now, whether or not you can make strain specific edibles, and now you answered with that. And yesterday, um, Dr. Ethan Russo was also on my side, so I just wanted to let you know that.
Riley Kirk: Yes. So have I appreciate it. Do you guys make edibles at home and have you ever experienced a, a homemade edible that had a strained specific effect?
Corinne Tobias: Yeah, almost all of mine have strain specific effects.
And I’ve given it to people, I give it to people in my community, you know, like I give chocolates to old ladies on the streets, you know, and they’ll tell me like, oh, that one like, made me feel really awake, actually couldn’t fall asleep. Or that one was like, you know, I was really tired and it was really relaxing.
And I’m like, there’s something to this cuz I know. What the starting product was, but they don’t have any idea. So I know it, I know it, my heart and soul to to be true.
Riley Kirk: Yeah. And, and even if it, like say the terpenes aren’t, we know they do provide some effect from the cannabis, but even like the ratio of cannabinoids has a huge impact.
And if you can carry through that ratio, which you should be able to do, um, with an ex at home extraction process like that would definitely have a more similar feeling. Or if, or a certain strain has high levels of some kind of minor compound, minor cannabinoid, then that is gonna contribute to the effects as well.
So, I mean, I, I’m literally decarboning flour as we speak in my kitchen, which is cool.
Corinne Tobias: What are you excited to see that’s emerging right now in the world of cannabis or cannabis science? Um, like what’s the one thing that you can’t stop talking about?
Riley Kirk: Hmm. There’s a lot of things I can’t stop talking about, but I think the thing that I’m most excited for and something that I’m personally working on too, which is why I’m excited for it, but a way to, um, map and visualize the complexity of an extract. Um, so that. Everyone can understand like how complex an extract is.
So for instance, an isolated molecule would be like one big circle, right? That’s a large abundance of one compound. But something like our smoke extract. I really wanna show people, or even a full spectrum, an Rs o something full spectrum. I wanna show people the chemical diversity that’s present in that product.
So I wanna show people a huge network of different molecules that are different sizes. So if you have a ton of cbd, that’d be a larger circle where the minor and rares would be smaller circles, but you could still visualize that rather than, you know, traditionally scientists will show what’s called a chromatogram.
And it’s like these little waves that show which compounds are present boring. Not many people know what you’re talking about. You know, I wanna be able to show the world how cool and diverse cannabis is, like by showing a cool image of that. And that way when you wanna show like, what’s the difference between this strain and this strain, or this cultivar in this cultivar, you can show what that extract looks like visually with these different shapes and sizes and molecules and be like, oh, I get it.
So this one, you know, has these molecules or these shapes or these things that this one doesn’t have. And then you can kind of conceptualize like, oh, okay, so the dist distillate has one to five molecules in it. Again, boring. But then you have these. These full extracts that have such beautiful complexity.
And then you can start to track like, okay, this one made me feel really good. You know, there’s these different apps now where you can track how certain products make you feel. Then we can start to understand what the chemistry in those products is and why it helps someone with Crohn’s disease, why it helps someone with chronic pain.
You know, what are these profiles that are helping people so much? And honestly, I think the same tactic can be applied to lab testing because lab testing is all over the place, all over the place in cannabis. And I don’t need to go down this wormhole, but oh my gosh, this is like 40% of my job now. It’s just like, that is not the right number.
Can we revisit this? Like, I know that’s wrong. Um, but yeah, that’s what I’m most excited for is like new, uh, data visualization methods to show the complexity of cannabis products and then ways to map that to how we actually feel.
Andrea Meharg: Keep working on that. I need you to come out with that like immediately please.
That sounds fantastic. Maybe I already know the answer to my question. Maybe it’s lab testing, but what in the industry or in cannabis science, like is really making you mad? What do you wish would like go away and people would never talk about again?
Riley Kirk: Ooh, there’s two things. The cannabis testing labs are at the moment, I think doing the best they can.
I really don’t think that it’s like a malicious thing to like, Report things falsely. I think there’s just a, a lack of standardization, so I won’t bring them down at all. But it is a little frustrating. But I would say, uh, the, the synthetic cannabinoids are like the most frustrating thing in the world. We have this plant that makes these safe molecules that are very effective in our body.
We grow enough of this plant so that everyone could have the medicine if it was accessible to them, but instead, the government creates these. Absolutely unnecessary loopholes, essentially. Well, they’re not loopholes. We have to create these loopholes so that people can, you know, get this medicine in places where it’s not available, that medicine’s not safe, it’s not regulated.
Um, we know like nothing’s tested properly. Um, for delta 10, hemp drive delta nine, delta eight, h, h c, whatever all of these derivatives are. And if we just made cannabis accessible to people, we wouldn’t have to be subjecting people to these, essentially toxins at the end of the day, I mean, Delta eight by itself or Delta 10.
They’re not bad compounds, no molecule is bad. But when you also have residual acid and all of these other molecules that we like don’t know what they do in our body, we are compromising the safety of people looking for natural medicine. And it’s not advertised to these people that these are synthetic molecules.
They think it comes from a plant. When someone reads a package that says T H C with delta eight in like size 10 font, like people assume that’s coming from the cannabis plant, they don’t assume that someone’s taking CBD B isolate in a laboratory and subjecting it to heat and acid and turning it into Delta eight thc.
They just assume it’s a natural product and not a synthetic product. And I think that’s like the biggest disservice that we’ve ever done to people looking for medicine, um, ever. So that’s, that’s my biggest beef with that.
Corinne Tobias: I love that you’re so unabashedly. I was gonna say extreme, but it’s not extreme.
The other side is extreme. You know, we’ve seen things as we were researching for the Delta eight podcast, where, where companies were saying organically grown Delta eight, and we were like, what in the actual fuck? Like, they had me confused. I was like, is there a way? And no, there is not a way to get a Delta eight product.
So far as I know, maybe you can tell me I’m wrong, but I have not seen a single product that isn’t a conversion process for Delta eight specifically, and Delta 10. Now Delta nine Hemp Drive becomes this whole different topic, which we covered in another podcast. Yes. But I really appreciate you doing this work and, and also I saw that you shared this paper review, where it showed these, these byproducts and these from the conversion process and these molecules, which like looked benign on the paper.
Right. They just look like a serotonin molecule or thc, you know, we’re used to seeing these little molecules everywhere. But then, you know, you were honest about it. Like we have no idea what these do in the human body at all. Um, can you tell me just a little bit more about those compounds? Are they naturally occurring or are they only from these conversion processes?
Riley Kirk: Yeah, so that paper was published in the Journal of Natural Products, I think in February of this year. So it’s a very new paper. And just some background, these authors purchased a commercially available t uh, Delta eight THC distillate, and they analyzed the distillate for purity. And what they found was there’s about 12 uh, compounds that shouldn’t be there.
So things other than Delta eight thc, four of them were naturally occurring compounds like C B D or C B N, and then the remaining of those compounds were cannabinoid like molecules like it, they had the basic structure, but, but. They weren’t naturally occurring. So they, you know, either had a different hydroxyl or oh group, or a slightly different carbon scaffold, but it overall they looked like molecules that could be from the plant.
Um, but they aren’t. And we know from the different molecules that the plant makes that a single hydrogen somewhere else or a single oxygen or a single oh group can drastically change the pharmacology in ways that we don’t fully know. And you know, I got a lot of comments on TikTok about like, oh, those look like safe molecules.
What’s the big deal? And the big deal is you’re buying a Delta eight product. You’re not buying a, you know, Delta 12 hydroxy quinone, blah, blah, blah, blah. You’re buying a Delta eight product and that product should only have Delta eight in it. Um, and this isn’t just for that one company that they were analyzing.
This is a trend across the board, but these people were the first to actually. Report and elucidate the structure of the unknowns. Cuz we all used to say like, oh, there’s definitely other things in these products, but we didn’t know what the other things were. This paper was the first to actually tell the world like, these are the other things that are produced, uh, during this conversion process.
And I would bet that that paper is going to lead to either standards being developed for those other compounds to make sure that they’re not in the final product and or research into, uh, you know, how these compounds interact with the body. I mean, maybe they have medicinal benefits. We don’t know. It could be good, it could be bad.
We really don’t know. Uh, but if you have access to the actual plant medicine, I would highly recommend just using products from the actual plant and not synthetic products.
Corinne Tobias: I love that you said that. Yeah. We might not know if these molecules are good or bad, but we do know that Delta eight products are not safe.
Like we do know that. Let the pharmacy people look at all these little compounds that you can create and do the thing. But from my perspective, and I’d love to hear your perspective on this, it should be gone like Delta, there should not be Delta eight and these other Franken cannabinoids accessible to people on the marketplace.
This drives me fucking crazy cuz it’s not, uh, a substitute. And I’ve, I’ve started to draw a really hard line. The more I learn about it, the more I’m like, absolutely not, no Delta eight, especially in a vape pen, but like, just it should be gone. How do you feel about that?
Riley Kirk: Yeah, I agree. I think at bare minimum it should be mandatory to have it on the package that it’s synthetically produced, mandatory.
Uh, but I also a hundred percent think that they should be gone. That video I made about that paper, the comments are frightening about what people are saying and that the adverse effects are like, I would think the FDA’s looking at that video because it’s like every time I use it, I get a killer headache.
Or I had a, like, essentially a psychedelic experience, but not in a good way on these products. Or, you know, it made my gut hurt for a week. All of these crazy adverse effects that you really don’t see from, products made from the plant. And there’s, we don’t know if those same byproducts are produced for everyone or if people are using like a different acid or more heat or less pure starting material, you could be making other molecules too.
And you know, maybe there are some people making quality Delta eight products out there, but I genuinely don’t think we need them when we have all of these molecules that the plant is making in a perfectly controlled and safe manner.
Corinne Tobias: Yeah, I, I kind of shuder to think, and I don’t wanna be like the grandma of this podcast today, but you just talked about how, you know, we were all like 14 years old and we tried cannabis for the first time, 13, 14.
And these products, like for children to be using these, you know, that teenagers are gonna have access to these products because they’re widely available. Like that part to me is so terrifying that like, we’re starting off like with this.
Riley Kirk: Yeah, I went to North Carolina last year to visit some friends and they were like, oh, you want some of this vape?
And I was like, absolutely. So I went and hit it. I’m like, oh my God, that tastes terrible. What is that? It was a Delta eight vape. Everyone there is just hitting Delta eight vapes cuz it’s all they have. And I was like, nevermind. I’m sorry this is all that’s available to you. It’s like, it’s terrible. I don’t think I would live there. Yeah. I wouldn’t live there.
Corinne Tobias: Move or please put pressure on your, your local governments and the federal government wherever you live, wherever you’re, you know, we have listeners from all over the world now to change these laws and to have more rational laws in place.
So this doesn’t happen where you are so that you can have access to this plant medicine.
Andrea Meharg: And the only way to do that is through education, or the most powerful way that we can move the needle on Delta eight and on so many other things is by being out there and speaking our truth about what we know as cannabis as a beautiful, healing, helpful plant medicine, and giving people these like nuggets of information that they need in order to make healthy choices when they’re coming to the plant.
And we just can’t thank you enough for doing all the work that you’ve been doing throughout your career that you continue to do with, creating these new papers that elucidate the, the chemical structure of molecules that are being created in these scary products. And for everything. So I just wanna.
Thank you from the entire community for everything that you’re doing and for coming on our podcast and giving us this time and allowing us to ask all these questions that are so helpful in moving the needle forward. So thanks again for being with us.
Riley Kirk: Yeah, my pleasure. And thank you guys for what you’re doing too.
Like you’re spreading knowledge, you’re spreading love. And also like, you know, you had asked me earlier about like, is there issues talking about being a daily cannabis user? This is all part of Destigmatization too, you know, saying I have my PhD, I would not have my PhD if I did not use cannabis throughout all of grad school.
I mean, talk about mental toll, like that was, that was definitely a tough time. But also like cannabis can help you just be creative. It can help you work through problems where you’re kind of having these. These issues thinking outside the box typically. And I would often solve like really difficult problems through the use of cannabis.
And just like sitting down at a whiteboard, smoking a bong and being like, oh, this makes a lot more sense now. And just kind of getting into that space. Because I do think that a lot of times stoners do have a bad reputation, specifically when spoken about in like politics. But the more examples that we can have about being functional members of society, creative, you know, stoner can be a good word.
Like we we’re typically very kind and easygoing, and I think we need more of that in the world. So more stoners the better, in my opinion.
Corinne Tobias: We’re with you, dad. More stoners the better. Yeah. Um, so where can people find you? So we can create more of these really well educated stoners in this world?
Riley Kirk: Yeah, so my main platform is definitely TikTok.
I just love that community. So I upload there at the most, for sure. Uh, that name is Kabaka. Um, I’m also on Instagram under the same name. I’m on YouTube under the same name, uh, smoke Canal, the company, uh, we have a Instagram as well. We have a podcast called Smoke and Science. Uh, we’re hoping to get that back going soon.
We’ve been on a little break. Um, and then you can check out our websites, just smoke and all.com, profound naturals.com and learn more about us there,
Corinne Tobias: oh, I wanna ask you 10,000 more questions. We are so over time and we really appreciate your time today, Andrews. We have all gotta go. We gotta go do stuff. But thank you again and, um, we’ll have this podcast will be coming out in our next season. Um, and we’ll let you know when it comes out and we’ll send you links and all that stuff.
You wanna share it and graphics and all this stuff and Cool. We can’t wait to share. What I’m excited was, it’s gonna be fucking awesome.
Riley Kirk: Awesome.
Andrea Meharg: Come true. Yeah. Thank you. That this was rad. Like beyond all, beyond all ev again. So thank you so
Riley Kirk: much. Yeah. Oh, I’m so glad. Yeah, I had a lot of fun. You guys are awesome.
Corinne Tobias: Cool. You’re awesome.
Andrea Meharg: Thanks ri thanks. Yeah, we’ll talk to you soon.
Riley Kirk: All right, see ya. Have a good one. Thank you. Yeah, you too. Bye.
Corinne Tobias: What the
Andrea Meharg: all runs for topicals. I gotta go. I got.
Corinne Tobias: Okay, bye. I know. I love you. Love you. Bye tomorrow. God.
Riley Kirk: Okay, bye.
Andrea: What an episode.
Yeah. That was super fun to be able to chat with her about all things cannabis. And it makes me want to like scream about this stuff from the rooftops even louder. What was the most intriguing thing that we talked about for you?
Well, obviously the topical part, I said it in the podcast. I was like, wait a second, what? And I, I had had that experience where topicals maybe weren’t giving me the relief I thought they were going to give.
And I thought maybe there’s something extra going on. Maybe something’s wrong with me. And to know that that also needs a tolerance break was life changing for me. Now I take tolerance breaks when I use topicals. And I’m not just slathering cannabis all over my body every day, all day.
So that’s a big change for me. How about you?
For me, it’s still the turning the smoked experience into the edible experience. I am truly fascinated by this and desperately need to come down to the States to someplace where Smokenol products are sold so I can check it out myself.
All right. We’d love to hear from you as well.
Have you ever tried a Smokenol products? Did the topicals thing also blow your mind? You can always send in your questions to [email protected] or comment below.
Corinne: No, hint, hint, this is a spoiler, I wanted to say spoiler alert, I win, but you said I win first. No, I’m butting into your thing and saying, I win,
Andrea: we’re adults.
Corinne Tobias: This is for us. It’s not, it’s for the good of everyone, but a little bit for us because it, cause all research starts with me search.
I remember being like, I want someone to tell me. If this is true or not, you know, since day one. And just being able to talk to these people who are actually doing research and be like, you know, we actually all wanna know this thing.
Can you please study this? Like,
no, we have no ability to be cool at
Corinne Tobias: all.
Riley Kirk: hey, how’s it going?
Andrea Meharg: We’re trying not to freak out. If you want us to be totally honest,
Riley Kirk: I’m really excited to be here. I’ve, I’ve been listening to a few episodes and I love the podcast, so this is awesome.
Corinne Tobias: Thank you. Oh my goodness. Like, do you see our faces just get instantly so red. Oh, love it. And you know, for we, for weed nerds, you guys are like the people. The people, you know, people.
Riley Kirk: That’s so exciting.
Corinne Tobias: Can’t wait for that paper to come out, guys.